32 Establishment of the National Demarcation Committee remained as a legacy to the Government which took office in 1997. During that Government there were some meetings between representatives of the States and indigenous peoples, who requested that indigenous representation be broadened; that request led to a bill which was submitted to the National Assembly on October 13, 1998. When the State granted the concession to the SOLCARSA corporation, the witness held the position of Minister, for which reason he knows that, while MARENA was considering that concession, some representatives of the indigenous communities of Awas Tingni, Kakamuklaya, and others came to their offices to object, arguing that their territorial rights were being violated, since the area of the proposed concession coincided with their ancestral territories. Together with representatives of the communities, he contacted the higher authorities at MARENA to state their concerns and demands. However, the position adopted by that Institution, as by the Government, was that empty areas or wastelands belonged to the State, that the indigenous communities had no title to the land, and that the concession would bring benefits because it would generate employment and income. These concerns were raised directly with the Minister of MARENA, first Milton Caldera, then his successor Claudio Gutiérrez, and then Roberto Araquistain y Láinez, who were directly in charge of policies pertaining to concessions. To grant a concession to a firm, first the criteria and policies for the country’s forest development had to be established; however, that had not yet been done, so concessions were granted without well adjusted criteria to ensure indigenous property rights and protection of the environment. MARENA only required the firm to submit a forest management plan. The witness noted that some of MARENA’s officials participated in the consultancy groups that prepared the management plans, so there was a conflict of interest. The indigenous communities of the region were never consulted on whether the concession to SOLCARSA was convenient, nor was any inspection carried out in the area. Neither was there a concrete commitment to investigate and appropriately address their complaints. Under Law No. 14, 28 indigenous communities that benefited from the agrarian reform were given titles. The witness knows that a draft Indigenous Communal Property Law was submitted to the National Assembly, and there were consultations to analyze that bill. The Awas Tingni Community, which was the one directly affected by the concession, has possession which goes back to the time before the creation of the Nicaraguan State, and like most indigenous communities it has a historical right to the lands it occupies and its resources. The concession to SOLCARSA damages them, as the logging would take place in their territory, which the community have traditionally occupied to live on and to carry out cultural, economic, and social activities. Maps and studies effectively support the right they have, as communities, to those areas and to their ancient places. h. Testimony of Humberto Thompson Sang, a member of the Lanlaya indigenous community